iCloud will have end-end encryption! Including Notes, Yay!

[wiredfractal]

@Christian

My personal opinion is that this is the right choice.

In countries like mine that labels you as terrorist for airing your negative opinion against the government, this is the right choice.

[karlnyhus]

@JohnAtl

The checksum matches the one Nation is interested in.

Is that the file Nation is interested in? Well, the probability of it not being the file are 4.3x10-43, while the odds of us being annihilated by an asteroid in the next second are 10-15. So, yeah, that’s the file, and certainly good enough evidence for Nation to deal with Alice.

If anyone cares, this is the very definition of circumstantial evidence.

[ACautionaryTale]

@karlnyhus

If anyone cares, this is the very definition of circumstantial evidence.

To be fair to John, fingerprint and DNA evidence meet probability profiles that are considerably less rigorous than that. If someone is inclined to take action against you for having a given file on your computer, and your computer has a file with the same SHA256 checksum as the file in question, then for every practical purpose that file is on your computer. (How it got there is another matter, but if you’re going to be in trouble for having a copy of the UN declaration of human rights on your computer, I don’t think you can rely on a robust legal system to aid you there )

[karlnyhus]

@ACautionaryTale

fingerprint and DNA evidence meet probability profiles that are considerably less rigorous than that

I am not my disk drive. An important difference is that DNA and fingerprints are part of me.

[JohnAtl]

@karlnyhus

If anyone cares, this is the very definition of circumstantial evidence.

This is why the phrase “beyond a reasonable doubt”, or “preponderance of evidence” are used.
Beyond trivial examples, hypotheses cannot be proven. We can fail to disprove them, which supports their veracity. However, hypotheses can be refuted or dis-proven. A classic example is one of the black swan, which was assumed (by Europeans) not to exist. Willem de Vlamingh “discovered” black swans in Australia in 1697, thus refuting the hypothesis (ref). The point here is that it only takes one data point (black swan) to disprove a hypothesis, but endless experimentation will never prove a hypothesis.
Over time, as evidence accumulates that supports the hypothesis, it can be considered a theory or law.

(I realize many here are familiar with these concepts, I’m just presenting them to round things out and give some context.)

[ACautionaryTale]

I was about to suggest that we’re getting off-topic, but then remembered what the topic is and why it’s important, and decided that we’re actually very much on topic

@karlnyhus

I am not my disk drive. An important difference is that DNA and fingerprints are part of me.

I think that I misunderstood your earlier statement about circumstantial evidence. I now think you were referring to the existence of the file on your computer as being circumstantial, instead of the probability of two different files having the same checksum.

For many people to whom E2EE is essential, it’s because simply being found to be in possession of some kinds of data puts their lives (or at least freedom) at risk. They are often contending with environments in which fine legal distinctions carry little or no weight and due process doesn’t exist.

[JKoopmans]

@Christian

many legislators want encryption while wanting to make sure that for instance child abuse does not happen unnoticed

I dint think that would be a problem. CSAM scanning would happen on device before it is sent to iCloud. That was the discussion some time ago, and Apple decided to wait a bit. (Think this is the reaction btw)

If Apple is encrypting e2e that secures your data in the cloud , but still does not secure your device. Any government can still tell Apple to implement content scanning, and they will (see China airdrop issue)