Knut shares his advice against Markdown

Page breaks? The web, as rendered in browser from smartphone to TV size, didn’t have a real concept of “pages” for a long time. It’s still not a concept widely used.

But are page or section breaks a “problem”?
I’d argue they are not a problem:

Just create a horizontal rule in Markdown - it’s part of Gruber’s original spec. They do act - and are intuitively readable in plain text as breaks between sections.

What you’re describing here doesn’t sound like essential parts of a document.

Logo or branding items do not contain or add essential information to a document. You can just omit them while retaining a document’s information and meaning. Same is true for headers and footers (unlike, and not to be confused with footnotes!), which aren’t really part of a document’s text and content - but merely provide reference or navigation (e.g. page numbers, chapter titles, etc.), or even brand recognition around it.

They can certainly be useful. But to use the analogy of a book: They are not what the original author writes or wrote - they are what the book’s publisher added around in the publishing process.

They are usually repeated content or can be automatically generated as part of the publishing or rendering process (e.g. dynamically generated numbers in an eBook).

If you want to control the positioning of said elements in a page-based context/rending, Markdown is useless, Rich text (as in .rtf) almost as useless too, HTML and CSS are unreliable and difficult. LaTeX is difficult. The “best” solution, that really provides control over such page-based layout is Desktop Publishing (DTP) application.

Side note:

:point_right: That may be the beauty (or explain great part of the popularity) of Microsoft Word: It strikes a balance between being a word processor that allows for the creation of structured text-based documents. Coupled with rich text formatting and WYSIWYG desktop publishing features. And all of them are (relatively) easily accessible to users.

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This is why markdown increases friction for me. I generally do not write for the web. I write reports, presentations, papers, etc. If one learns basic keyboard shortcuts, it takes no longer to format a rich text document in Word or Pages than in Ulysses or iA Writer. I know this to be true because, over the last two years, I’ve used Word, Pages, Ulysses, iA Writer, and Obsidian to determine which app(s) produces the least friction and are the most efficient for my use cases. In fact, for tables, footnotes, images, and more, RT can be easier. In Word and Pages, I have created Styles with associated keyboard shortcuts. As soon as I want the RT Style equivalent of H1, H2, H3, a footnote, etc., I invoke the shortcut. It is as fast (or nearly so, depending on the shortcut created) as typing #, ##, ##, >,![[ [[( ), etc. And, I don’t have the inevitable cleanup required when I’ve rendered from a markdown document.

Please understand I’m NOT arguing against markdown. In fact, at one point (perhaps more than once! :slightly_smiling_face:), I posted how I planned to do all, or most of, my writing in markdown. But I’ve changed my mind after using markdown for extended periods. I’m only explaining why, for many of us who do not primarily write for the web, RT and Word processors can be as efficient, often more so, as using markdown as an intermediary step between a plain text document and the final rendered product. I’ve noticed that most people never take the time to learn keyboard shortcuts for invoking styles, footnotes, and other formatting features. Few people take time to create shortcuts on a per-app basis in settings, which I’ve done. As a consequence, they end up constantly taking their hands off of the keyboard, or not taking advantage of the power and flexibility of Styles.

There is, however, a big caveat to what I just wrote. As far as I’ve been able to determine, there is no way to create and use keyboard Styles formatting shortcuts in Pages when using the iPad with the Magic Keyboard. This is an instance when markdown is better because it can be invoked regardless of the platform. But, for my purposes and needs, this ends up creating less friction in the aggregate than the cleanup I have to do when rendering from markdown to a final product. Most of my documents need to end up as Word, Pages.

Again, I want to emphasize that for most in this forum, markdown is probably superior for their writing needs. But for us “more tech average folk”, and the vast majority who never listen to tech podcasts or frequent tech forums and who do not write primarily for the web, RT is the best option.

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Yikes, I saw the crazy hailstorm at Red Rocks in Colorado (on TV), is that where you are?

No, I was in the Ozark Mountains. The storm came up suddenly and was fierce.

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I’ve visited that area several times for work. It’s beautiful but the weather can quickly get “interesting”. Hail that size can be lethal.

I’m thankful that you and yours weren’t injured.

Thanks. My wife and I stood on the porch watching the car get beat to a pulp. But, we were safe and dry. :slightly_smiling_face:

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For a real blast from the past, I went back and listened to Mac Power Users #131: Markdown Revisited - Relay FM from 2013. David and his co-author Eddie had just released the MacSparky Field Guide: Markdown. It was especially nostalgic to hear Katie Floyd’s voice again as she does her best to keep the guys on track. At about 16 minutes into the podcast, she tries to make them answer the question, “Why Markdown?”

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Thanks for the link - a interesting episode

This. I do miss the interaction between the two. I know things move on, but the original team was peak MPU.

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Stephen does an equally good job so it got me to wondering. If it was “peak MPU” with Katie, perhaps the difference is that she would push back more often against David than Stephen does. I get the impression that Stephen and David agree more than David and Katie did at times. I rather like it when the hosts have more divergent perspectives on workflows and applications.

I may be completely wrong in my perspective and my recollection.

I am not sure I thought about it that deeply, and I certainly didn’t mean to suggest that Stephen isn’t great.

I just have a huge amount of nostalgia for a lot of those early podcasts (Maccast, Macroundtable, one that OSKen used to do a session on - can’t remember the name, there was one hosted by a couple of guys, one of whom died) Mac Power Users was my favourite. Perhaps it was nostalgia for a time when you had to defend your choice of a “toy” mac over a “work” PC and it made me feel part of a wider community.

Katie struck me as an older sister, very accommodating of David, but always ready to guide him. As I said nothing stands still, but the episode @karlnyhus posted took me right back.

(edit: Way off topic I know)

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A tangent: If I could ask the UI Fairy for one thing, it would be nudging (OK forcefully shoving) casual Word users away from in-line formatting and into the disciplined use of Styles. Just yesterday, someone sent me a lengthy Word document for review and comment in which the author used SPACES for outline indentation and UNDERLINING for headings—clearly harkening back to the glory days of the typewriter, although apparently forgetting all about tab stops. (Apologies for shouting.) Since the file is intended to document organizational responsibilities, processes, and procedures it’s going to have to be re-written. I’ll do so using Styles; five years from now, someone will decide to edit it and it will end up being a clumsy hodgepodge of Styles and in-line formatting.

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Yes indeed! I find myself teaching very basic word processing skills to individuals whose primary job is document creation! :grinning:

The good news for me is that my EA is trained in computer programming. I’m able to tell her, “please create this type of table, with a 3D-chart whose 3 axes are X, Y and Z and incorporate a 3 column bulleted summary of “x” as a separate section and include all footnotes and final references. Also, take the main points and create slides with graphics illustrating them.” The next day, I have completed files in my email or collaborative Word/Pages and Keynote documents.

Most professional knowledge workers should be able to do these basic things. When styles are properly formatted, they are more flexible than markdown headings. But, few seem to use Styles, not to mention custom keyboard shortcuts.

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I’m right there with you!

I keep trying to sell the idea to my students, pitching it as important both for accessibility reasons and as something that will help them create a neat table of contents when it comes time to write their senior theses.

The difficulties are (1) that they’ve typically not even heard of document accessibility before, so the concept is foreign to them, and (2) I’m usually trying to evangelize to first-years, so they see that thesis as a long way off.

I keep trying. I keep trying to evangelize for Zotero, too. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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My constitutional law professor in my doctoral program evangelized me to EndNote years ago and I’m still using it. :grinning:

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Back when I worked at Digital Equipment Corporation I managed a 250 page local operating procedures manual. There wasn’t a single character that didn’t have a paragraph style attached to it. Includetext fields attached the title of a local operating procedure to subsequent mentions of that local operating procedure elsewhere in the text; change it once, changes everywhere. I figured out how to do a dynamic table of contents that way. Figures of forms referred used includetext fields to separate documents in the same folder.

I had to split the manual into six parts for performance because this was on a 486DX 20 with 12 megs of RAM and Word 2.0!

It still worked.

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If it had anything to do with the MicroVAX II I may have read it. :grinning:

In Word Perfect? :slightly_smiling_face::wink:

20 characters

local operating procedures for the plant in Sunnyvale where I worked.

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No, Microsoft Word 2.0, with the wonderful paper manuals.

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