What an Article! “Markdown and the Slow Fade of the Formatting Fetish”

[zkarj]

@DrJJWMac

I do not see markdown as a viable formatting approach to produce content that must be defined to fit into strictly-sized container layouts, ultimately such things as letter paper or A4 sized pages. Let’s call such things a “document”. Content that can go wherever it wants in the currently viewed container is correspondingly called a “Web page”.

I have a similar distinction, but I refer to “documents” and “information”. Except in certain professions, most writing is information.

In my view, if someone needs to sign (or otherwise sanction) a versioned copy of something, then it’s a document and Word might be a good choice. Everything else is information.

In my industry, IT, there have historically been certain ‘artefacts’ that have been treated as documents because they represent a ‘contract’ between two parties. But the vast, vast majority of writing is information. The word “documentation” in the IT context is misleading, as it is always information.

When it comes to authoring information, there are many, many decent systems. However, the far more important aspect to consider is access. It doesn’t matter how brilliant your writing is if the intended audience don’t see it, either from lack of access or barriers of accessibility.

[Bmosbacker]

@DrJJWMac

I do not see markdown as a viable formatting approach to produce content that must be defined to fit into strictly-sized container layouts, ultimately such things as letter paper or A4 sized pages. Let’s call such things a “document”. Content that can go wherever it wants in the currently viewed container is correspondingly called a “Web page”.

I like those definitions and distinctions.

[chrisecurtis]

Interesting thread. I’d just throw in two thoughts:

1. Writing and reading is much too complex to be understood as “either/or”. Anyone arguing that only WYSIWYG or markdown is better has already lost the argument, IMHO. It always depends on the nature of what you are trying to communicate, in what context and for what purpose.
2. I’m convinced that markdown’s popularity is driven by the same approach that drives some people to insist that every function in software needs to be accessible directly from the keyboard. As many developers are committed to that approach, they’ve tended to offer markdown in more apps than ever really needed it and there is certainly a lot of feedback that demands it (e.g. in notes fields in todo apps)

[webwalrus]

@chrisecurtis

As many developers are committed to that approach, they’ve tended to offer markdown in more apps than ever really needed it

It’s almost like developers are also big users of software. Who knew? Although adding Markdown to something like a todo app’s note field is end-user-transparent if the end user doesn’t use Markdown, as no toolbar is required.

[NiranS]

@glenthompson

the best way to learn to write is to write, write, and more write. Do you think a good programmer gets that way by reading classic programs? No, they wrote a lot of bad programs and learned how to program better in the process. From that viewpoint, a simple writing tool will be better.

I like this and it makes sense.
Writing, the act of getting your thoughts out, does not depend on formatting or fonts. Teaching kids about writing is more about organization of thought rather than the operation of a specific software.

I like markdown because I don’t have to fiddle with settings - sections, heading, bullet points are in the text itself.

Would markdown work for teaching kids? I am not so sure of that. Too much emphasis on structure and not enough placed on actually getting the ideas out. Applying structure before formalizing thought could lead to an incomplete understanding.

I am not sure where the answer lies. I like outlines and mind maps, also boxes and lines. They make sense when I am trying to understand and organize information. My son’s brain finds this confusing and a waste of time.

Sometimes just writing things down and seeing where the ideas go, even if it is a messy glob on the page or the screen is a great start for kids and adults.

[Bmosbacker]

@glenthompson

On the subject of teaching kids to write I disagree with the way I was taught. While reading different types of writing is good, the best way to learn to write is to write, write, and more write. Do you think a good programmer gets that way by reading classic programs?

Forgive me, but as an education leader, I would respond both yes and no to your comment.

It is certainly true that writing extensively is essential to becoming a good writer. However, I would argue—and research supports this—that reading superior literature is equally indispensable. Exposure to excellent writing across various genres not only broadens vocabulary but also introduces transcendent, universal themes such as man against man, man against nature, man against himself, good versus evil, and the like. Good literature serves as a mentor, providing the foundation upon which the apprentice can practice and refine his own craft. Both reading and writing are essential disciplines in the making of a good writer. Moreover, reading great works imparts not only knowledge but also a broader perspective and deeper wisdom, all of which enrich one’s own writing.

[krocnyc]

I write in Markdown all the time now, not to format the text, but to organize it (using headings, block quotes and the like). If the text requires formatting that’s any more complicated than what Markdown affords, I’ll migrate it over to another tool for the formatting bells and whistles. It’s much the same way I was taught to use html: html syntax is for organizing the document; css is for formatting.

My big beef with Word is that it’s too easy to apply in-line formatting in combination with defined styles, which makes editing someone else’s text next to impossible. I’ve had people circulate documents where half the lists were created using a defined list style and half were created using spaces for indenting and whackadoodle array of bullets, numbers, and letters.

[cavalierex]

Here’s a shout out to Quarto, which is working hard to improve technical writing. It is Markdown based for a reason. HTML output and PDF output are easy from the same source file via Pandoc under the hood. And page layout is made possible through LaTeX or Typst under the hood.

Nothing will replace things like Affinity Publisher for really customized page spreads for magazines, etc.

[EMILY_HEGARTY1]

My job is teaching writing to college students. They prefer to write in texting chains or chat threads or in Apple Notes on their phones. They don’t think about formatting unless you make them.
Many colleges push the use of Learning Mgmt Systems now like Brightspace or WebCt, etc. These allow the institution to oversee course progress and grading, and also allow for links to Turnitin’s giant unethical database of stolen student copyright. LMSs only work properly with specified file formats, usually .docx and .pdf.
One could collect student work on paper, but one will find an uphill battle of complaints about not having access to a printer, or not having the $1 they need to pay for the library printer. And then students will insist that they submitted work on paper which the professor must have lost. Students nowadays have litigious mindsets, perhaps because tuition costs are outrageous.
So there is probably some Platonic ideal of a classroom at some very elite college where students are happy to learn in organic handcrafted ways, carefully lettering with pencil and paper (they can’t read or write cursive) and having thoughtful dialogues. But the average college classroom is based on technology-assisted work product submitted in exchange for credits. I’m sure the higher education industry is partly to blame, but note that almost all government funding for higher education is now predicated on “job readiness” and serving the needs of local industries for workers. The idea of learning for learning’s sake, or for the elegant romanticism of Jobs being inspired by calligraphy, is mostly dead.

It’s a good article though.

[Bmosbacker]

@EMILY_HEGARTY1

The idea of learning for learning’s sake … is mostly dead.

If this weren’t a tech-focused forum, I’d run with this one. I will take a short jog.

The overly transactional, low-brow, utilitarian, and vocational approach to higher education—embraced by all parties—has, at great intellectual cost to students and society, cheapened the very meaning of education itself. The result? We graduate too many barbarians in suits—well, they used to wear suits.

Compounding the problem is the rise of postmodernism, which has sought to replace objective truth with the absurd notion of “my truth,” undermining both intellectual rigor and moral clarity. If truth is only subjective and personal, then even the claim that “truth is relative” or “mine” collapses under its own weight—reductio ad absurdum. In the end, there is nothing truthful to share, and nothing to which we are ultimately accountable.

I’ll always remain deeply grateful that I was blessed with an education that took the humanities seriously and required substantial reading in classical literature, philosophy, history, theology, the history and philosophy of science, Greek, a touch of Latin, and more. It also demanded a tremendous amount of writing—which I somehow managed to complete on a small electric typewriter, armed with plenty of whiteout!

I don’t have time—and you don’t want to read more—but I should quickly add that there is an essential place for highly specialized, vocationally focused professional training. I certainly want my doctor, lawyer, and engineer to know more than Latin! My point is that such training should be rooted in a substantial liberal arts education—which, too often, is lacking and under appreciated. As Steve Jobs put it:

It’s in Apple’s DNA that technology alone is not enough. That it’s technology married with liberal arts, married with the humanities that yields us the result that makes our hearts sing.

This is true of life, not just technology.

I better stop!

[EMILY_HEGARTY1]

@Bmosbacker

The overly transactional, low-brow, utilitarian, and vocational approach to higher education—embraced by all parties—has, at great intellectual cost to students and society, cheapened the very meaning of education itself.

Preach, brother!

Further twist: ChatGPT has rendered online courses inherently unverifiable. No one knows if a human or an LLM wrote those submissions. The supposed text checkers don’t work. But, everyone wants online courses which bring in full tuition dollars without even taking up classroom space. So everyone is careful not to talk about it.

I teach online courses, some with zoom meetings and some without. I’m dedicating part of the summer to designing AI-resistant assignments. I love online education- one of the original promises of the internet was democratizing education. But my love is not blind.

[alvinc]

I am here to capture some screenshots from the Japanese users on X, in which they use the symbols from their keyboards of their language rather than the formats provided. We can do the similar with emojis at least.

I don’t mind what Markdown will be used for, like John Gruber for writing blogs only or universally used for all kinds of writing with more convenient ways of formatting, say a report.

When I was writing a blog article or articles for my book almost a decade ago, I replaced Word with iA Writer simply not because of Markdown but I hate Word, and iA Writer at that time was already good for use on Mobile which made my life easier.

Nowadays we have more tools for easier writing, and writings can be from simply text messages, short journals to academic papers. For me writing is helping me writing, so I like writing some words, instead of a long article, when I suddenly have an idea especially when walking, this is why Apple Notes, even without convenient formatting, is already great for me to write on my iPhone. Just open the app, tap new note, write, and that’s it. Editing is also handy on Apple Notes, while on iA if I change the title I will need to tap rename on the file list first.

That said, different tools have its tools. iA Writer addresses the issue of Word and is designed for serious writing. Apple Notes (or other apps, maybe Draft or SimpleNote for example) is something that is done gradually on the go. Markdown is not the only factor when writing.

[krocnyc]

@Bmosbacker

My point is that such training should be rooted in a substantial liberal arts education—which, too often, is lacking and under appreciated.

If I recall correctly, you’re planning to read Adam Becker’s latest book, More Everything Forever. I suspect you’ll be pumping your fist in the air when you get to Chapter 6. Here’s a representative quote:

The culture of the tech industry—especially start-up culture—doesn’t value the sort of skills that someone might learn in an introductory college English course, a history class, or really anything at all in the humanities.

I don’t know if that assessment is 100% accurate, of course, but it does inform some of Becker’s overall analysis.

[Bmosbacker]

Perhaps I’m in good company.

[MevetS]

This isn’t new:

The Two Cultures

The TL;DR bit:

Snow’s position can be summed up by an often-repeated part of the essay:

A good many times I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists. Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare’s? [6] I now believe that if I had asked an even simpler question – such as, What do you mean by mass, or acceleration, which is the scientific equivalent of saying, Can you read? – not more than one in ten of the highly educated would have felt that I was speaking the same language. So the great edifice of modern physics goes up, and the majority of the cleverest people in the western worldhave about as much insight into it as their neolithic ancestors would have had.[6]

[webwalrus]

This reminds me of a conversation I had once, where the other person told me that something violated the Second Law of Thermodynamics. I asked “what’s the Second Law of Thermodynamics?”, not as a “gotcha,” and not because I have no idea about how thermodynamics works, but because I couldn’t remember the numbers offhand.

Apparently they didn’t know what it was either!

Incidentally though, this is one of my gripes with some of the “you would know this if you were educated” stuff. It’s much more important that somebody understands what “entropy” is than it is that they can tie it to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. And practically speaking, it’s even more important that they understand practical implications - like that energy-saving thermostats aren’t “a total scam” because “you waste way more energy heating the place back up at the end of the day.”

[krocnyc]

A decently educated person should have some grounding in both the humanities and the STEM disciplines, regardless of which ends up being their area of expertise. Innumeracy is as big a tragedy as illiteracy.

[sgtaylor5]

There was a short story in Analog Science Fiction entitled “abandon all heat, ye who enter here“. Apparently Mephistopheles got Maxwell‘s Demons to go on strike, and they exported all the heat out of hell and repaired most of the problems in the world. Hell literally froze over.

In it was about the best definition of the three laws of thermodynamics I’ve ever heard:

You can’t win - no physical process has ever been found to make energy.
You can’t even break even - every physical process always has waste heat; that is to say it isn’t perfect.
You can’t get out of the game - there has never been an observation of a physical process behaving contrary to the first two laws.

[brookter]

I’m sure you know the (very, very) old shaggy dog story of the student’s answer to the exam question “Is Hell exothermic or endothermic?”, but for those who don’t, there are loads of versions of it on the net. One taken at random…

THERMODYNAMICS OF HELL