In Praise of DEVONthink: You Should Give it Another Try

[Bmosbacker]

I have been using DEVONthink 4 more extensively than in the past. Previously, my primary use was for storage of research articles. After refining my workflow for the new year, I now use DEVONthink 4 for in-depth research and study. The stages of my process from research to publication or delivery, whether a speech, devotion, or other work, are as follows: research and study in DEVONthink, outline in OmniOutliner 6, draft the series (for example, a study in Proverbs) in Scrivener, and finalize in Pages.

There is much to appreciate about DEVONthink, but two features stand out for me: Wikilinks and the new connected graph view (see below).

I share this because, if you have considered DEVONthink or only briefly dabbled in it, but never gave it a thorough test drive, I encourage you to give it another try. The application can be complex, but with that complexity comes power and flexibility.

[brookter]

Very interesting, thanks! DEVONthink is indeed very powerful.

Just as a matter of interest, what role does OmniOutliner play in this process? I ask as you’re already using Scrivener, which is a powerful outliner in its own right, and I wondered what additional benefit OO brings.

[Bmosbacker]

That is a good question. My use for OO is primarily because I do some work on the iPad and Scrivener mobile is not good for organizing lengthly material. If I do my preliminary outlining in OO, I can import it directly into Scrivener and refine from there.

[brookter]

I see – thanks for the explanation!

[nfdksdfkh]

I’ve gone the other way recently and rolled back some of what I use Devonthink for, and I think I’ve reached a nicer balance. I was using it for all sorts of bits and pieces, ranging from a global inbox, to snippets, boilerplate text, checklists, project support materials, general notes, ad-hoc research information and formal meeting papers. I’ve stripped everything out except for research information and I think that works better.

Research information is obviously its bread and butter and works great. One change I have made is to put everything into a synced SharePoint folder, which is then indexed into Devonthink, rather than imported. I can collect new materials via Devonthink, which will sync them back to SharePoint. I can then work with the documents using Claude’s new(ish) SharePoint integration. This works fantastically well, as it allows me to work with my Devonthink library using the Claude app, which is far more full featured. And as a bonus, anyone else in the organisation has access to my library too, which they can also use with Claude.

All the other stuff, well, it kind of worked, but everything just got in each other’s way. The sidebar became a cluttered mess, and there isn’t a dashboard, unless you cobble one together yourself. Plus the mobile app certainly wasn’t geared up for all that. I do that in various specialist apps now, and they’re better at it, and Devonthink is better without those cross purposes getting in the way.

[Joost]

Yah, i recognize this. DT can quickly become an “everything” bucket, useless soup.

My first use of DT (early 2.x version) had practically every doc in it that flowed through my mac. Adding to the pile of “leaves” was no consistent grouping and what to do with tags? Over the years, i created databases for specific domains which greatly help in creating clarify allowing to switch context or combining contexts. Also i decided tag use is very specific for each database/domain. But most importantly; some stuff just isn’t necessary to keep in DT, or keep at all.

I use DGTG also, mostly for reviewing docs on the go - its great for annotating pdfs. But imho it sucks for note taking - i use apple notes even though the bridge apple note to DT (or anything else for that matter) doesn’t exist.

Funny enough, I am considering going back to taking notes with DT. I wrote an MCP for use with claude that changes how i work with docs and notes. For example, i have a large DT database with datasheets of electronic components. Every component i use or ever considered is in this db, including training materials and blog/forum posts with folks commenting on designs, problems etc. Combining this with my own historic notes i can then ask claude to generate a summary of a chip with pin layout including problems for specific aspects as well as my own notes on this. Similar stuff can be done for patents… I know this is a bit specific but perhaps tickles your brain.

[Bmosbacker]

@Joost

I use DGTG also, mostly for reviewing docs on the go - its great for annotating pdfs. But imho it sucks for note taking - i use apple notes even though the bridge apple note to DT (or anything else for that matter) doesn’t exist.

Funny enough, I am considering going back to taking notes with DT. I wrote an MCP for use with claude that changes how i work with docs and notes.

I’d love to use DT or DTTG for my work notes and leave Apple Notes for personal ones. However, even with the improvements in version 4, DT isn’t a great note-taking app. It’s decent on the Mac but poor on the iPad. If you find a way to make this work, please let me know! I’d really appreciate the ability to separate work from personal notes.

[Amontillado]

I wish the server edition weren’t so expensive and I wish it had all the application’s features.

One of my tasks is to keep financial records for a 501(c)(3), which is fancier than it sounds. I balance checkbooks, keep receipts, balance statements, and produce monthly and annual reports.

Requests to see those records are rare, but I’ve found if I can tell a board member they can have free run of the “filing cabinet” within a minute or two, nobody feels locked out. That’s a good thing.

Anyway, I’ve got the server edition. At work, we can’t run useful software on our company machines, which means we’re limited to OneNote for organizing stuff - but I can access DT’s web server on my LAN.

I haven’t found a to-do scheme to my liking yet. I think just status tags will serve. A group per project’s to-do’s and tags to indicate pending, in flight, done, hoping I can duck this one, etc.

Suggestions most welcome.

[nfdksdfkh]

So DTTG 3 flat out never worked for me and I’d given up trying years ago. I tried using DTTG 4 for a week or two and it seemed decent at first, but I almost immediately ran into the issue of files not uploading, so I’ve given up again. It might not even have been a big problem to be honest, but my patience for Devonthink syncing was long ago used up.

I did consider setting up an MCP for DT but since our company uses SharePoint so much, it just made sense to put everything in there and use its SharePoint integration. That way I get results from all our sites at once.

[DEVONtech_Jim]

@nfdksdfkh

but I almost immediately ran into the issue of files not uploading, so I’ve given up again. It might not even have been a big problem to be honest, but my patience for Devonthink syncing was long ago used up.

Did you open a support ticket about this?

[DEVONtech_Jim]

@nfdksdfkh

and there isn’t a dashboard, unless you cobble one together yourself.

A dashboard for what specifically?

[nfdksdfkh]

For DTTG3 I raised tickets, I went on the forum, I trawled blogs, Reddit and YouTube. I switched from old iCloud to new iCloud to Dropbox and back again. I split my databases into small ones and then back into big ones again. I verified and repaired hundreds of times. I spent more afternoon and evenings trying to get it working than I want to think about, before eventually realising it was wasting more time than it would ever save.

So when DTTG4 comes out and within a couple of weeks starts exhibiting the same behaviour, I hope you can understand why I can’t bring myself to spend any more time on it.

[SpivR]

I think the way to use DevonThink, or really any software that requires thoughtful purchase decision, is to focus on a workflow need or capability that app solves in a way that works for your own brain / way of thinking.

For me, the key breakthrough was to stop evaluating the “worth” of any app by examing what “percentage of the features” I was using and the relative ROI or cost/benefit based on that.

Once I got past the FOMO of not using all the fancy features that many others were praising and being comfortable with the solution tailored for me and what I need, I did two things: I stopped using some popular apps that everyone praised, and I started using more specialized apps (like DevonThink) that really fit my needs.

Perhaps more controversial, I have stopped evaluating the cost of software or hardware technology on the “cup of coffee” or absolute value scale.

I don’t care about the opportunity cost of $50, $500, or even $1000 piece of tech. If it does what I want and makes me happy, I’m willing to spend/over-spend for it.

Yes, I’m fortunate that being older and having a bit of a career behind me, I have a larger discretionary limit that doesn’t require gut-wrentching trade-offs when making some purchases, but I had to get past the “Everybody says it is a rip-off” false philosophy of indignation common in some tech circles.

[jmanko16]

I am on the same path as you moving from DT. As a disclaimer, I have used DT3 for years, and am a current paying subscriber for DT4 and use DTTG, but in the past month have completely moved away from DT and DTTG. DT is a huge filing cabinet for family documents/finances, my read it later app (convert webpage to pdf), as well as my academic document storage for reference. I try at least 2x a year to make it work for my notes (both typed and as a goodnotes replacement with apple pencil). I’ve found that there is a lot of friction, and I don’t love the way the data syncs (stored on device rather than stored primarily on server and access data). Also, it’s just not something my wife is interested in learning to access financial documents. I considered moving to DT server, but ultimately have moved most of my “DT” use cases elsewhere.

While DT is great at academic documents, Zotero has a version of webdav sync that I prefer. And while the database is annoying for some things (Zotero saves annotations/highlights not on the pdf), it does make remote changes much faster (for example highlighting 1 line in a 100mg pdf textbook doesn’t have to re-upload the whole document just the highlight). This also allows use as a true reference and citation manager. My biggest issue with Zotero has been the iOS app doesn’t support metadata fetching and I am a 90% iPad user, but this has been added recently.

For read it later, I just like saving some articles for reference and occasionally mark them up, and have been trying safari “reader” mode then exporting the pdf to Zotero and works pretty darn good.

For notes I always end up trying DT and obsidian but they are so clunky that I end up back with apple notes. Family sharing works so darn well and it’s great on iOS. Some documents I have been moving to Joplin since it’s iOS app has significantly improved as I prefer to keep some data on my own server rather than iCloud (even with encryption on). I’m not sure this is ready to get the wife approval yet, but I think its getting close enough to be a real consideration.

Finally, for all the personal documents/emails/pdf etc I finally bit the bullet and setup up paperless-ngx. Honestly it fits my needs well. Its search is pretty darn good (haven’t used it enough to compare with DT). It allows me paste a link of the document into a shared iCloud calendar and my wife can click on it and she can view it (aka school meeting for kids now has the email link or pdf of what was required and no work on her end). This did not work well with Devonthink at all in a shared environment. Also you can run LLM (local or online, but I am doing local since this is personal and financial documents) to help tag, sort, and even query your personal documents.

So at this point DT doesn’t particularly offer me anything that isn’t done better somewhere else, and I value the ability to keep data on my server in a viewable format (as compared to a sync store). Moving anything I can out of the cloud to my local server is a win. This allows me to snapshot my server, and backup to my local second NAS as well as a remote NAS. My wife doesn’t have to worry about the complexity of something like DT (and I don’t have to worry about her deleting stuff!), and as my kids are starting to save more documents/photos it allows a much more cost effective and private backup strategy as well that just happens in the background. And ultimately if something happens to me, sure my family likely can’t setup the home server apps I have, but all photos/documents/files, etc are accessible in regular plain vanilla file/folder if needed and they can get access to it all.

[Joost]

@Bmosbacker

I’d love to use DT or DTTG for my work notes and leave Apple Notes for personal ones. However, even with the improvements in version 4, DT isn’t a great note-taking app. It’s decent on the Mac but poor on the iPad. If you find a way to make this work, please let me know! I’d really appreciate the ability to separate work from personal notes.

For DTTG to work this time, i need to figure out what keeps me from using it for taking notes. Just to get it out of the way, something we are probably all thinking this: DTTG is uggggly. Ok there, now lets move on.

I use a single database called ‘brain’ for note taking - yep, this was/is intended to document all the stuff that swirls in my head. I have a few folders and various sub folders that give my state of flow some shape but not too much. Notes will need to go to this database, synced by DT to the mac, then further dispatched if necessary in DT on the mac (i rarely do that and tend to keep things in ‘brain’)

For me the barriers on ipad/ios are:

1. I want an ultra quick way to start taking a note AND select what note (type). So perhaps a shortcut in control center. Phone on, swipe down, tap to start note of some type. Yeah that would feel right.

• MD/Rich text (by far use case 1 for me)
• Handwritten something (less important)
• Image (way less important)

For handwritten stuff, I’d need to branch out to apple notes or something and that starts to look ugly quick, similar with images perhaps so I am going to ignore those for now.

2. When note taking is done, saving/finishing should include selecting its designation. Again super simple and it doesnt need to be many different end points. I dont want to search for it or type it. So I am thinking a (smallish) list with tags. The note is saved to brain/inbox, whereupon DT sorts it (based on tag) into applicable folder.

3. I am not writing a million different notes at once but i am quite often capturing different topics/domains during the days and working on all of them in succession/switching through these. I dont want to go hunt for them in the DTTG database if I want to make an edit. So some sort of mechanism to show the last X number of notes I worked on and tap one to edit it.
   Not sure how to resolve this. We have ‘recents’ in DTTG but It’s still “open DTTG → find Recent → scroll/find note → open”. I could possibly create another shortcut to open DTTG ‘recent’. I dont think DTTG exposes more than the last one so thats a bummer. Hmm, perhaps use the DTTG widgets, it has recents i believe? Could it be shown in the control center? Or… dare i say it, use a bit of python (pythonista) that looks at the sync data (somehow) and presents a recents list. This could be called from a shortcut again so the “start note” and “recent notes” both can be in the command center.

This is just flowing out, i have done zero discovery on what DTTG can do these days and i am probably overthinking it. But seeing it all written out sort of clarifies (for me) why DTTG is just a brain-flow-state killer when it comes to taking notes. Oh and i never considered a nice front end such as AppleNotes or Obsidian etc. because i do not want to have the same document in two places and get them out of sync quickly (because I edited the wrong doc) and/or have complicated binary sync issues. Hate that.

May be some of this is tickling your brain?

[jmanko16]

I have made many different DTTG shortcuts if you would like to message me and I can share. Specifically I had one for inbox to append, one for a “daily note yyyy-mm-dd” append and if not made to make a new note, and general meeting template.

Ultimately the problem I had was the syncing issue. It’s just easier to use apple shortcuts to a generic text file and then drag them into DT later, or use an Apple note and drag over later.

This problem is what always leads me to try obsidian (super easy to custom shortcut to the “obsidian” local folder and append or make new text file. I always had sync issues between devices however…and then back to Apple notes.

[Joost]

Thanks for the offer! I will need to dig in a bit more myself first before I fully understand myself (if that makes sense) and would better be able to understand your shortcuts. But good to know others have done work here.

Wrt to synching, I must say (knock on wood) I never had an issue with that. Perhaps at the start when I first worked with DT, the synching options are multitude which is both great and bewildering. I found that synching via iCloud is rock solid and quite fast - quite unlike using iCloud as a folder/file system which can be quite bad. So that part I am not concerned about.

To make DTTG work for me, I need to do my best to remove it as a disruption to my flow yet capture the data so that I reap the benefits of its management. Thats what I need to focus on what that really means for me.

It is a bit disappointing that the boys and girls at DEVONthink not give this front end, specifically at the DTTG side, more thought from a note taking perspective. So much great work is done wrt to the document ecosphere but the entry is thought of (mostly) as drag and drop from another place into DT. I have seen this come up in their forum multiple times so I know I am not alone but they are sticking with their philosophy of minimal note creation UX/UI. Oh well.

[DEVONtech_Jim]

There are improvements to item / document creation in DEVONthink To Go 4. Have you tried it?
But again remember: it’s not a bespoke note-taking application. Document creation is a convenience feature not the core focus of the app.

[Joost]

Hi Jim,

As mentioned above, I did not fully research DTTG 4 features. I am happy to hear there are specific creation functions, will dive in!

I totally understand DT is not set for note-taking (only) as you have said so many times on your own company’s forum. DT has value for me regardless of whether I can take notes in it or not, it has so for close to two decades.

Note taking is a very natural extension to DT (perhaps in particular for DTTG). You recognized this as you have added that ability, however, I find it a little lacking. But even then, I don’t mind so much as long as I can work around my struggles with it (see my ramblings above). If your company’s focus remains to shy away from a full-on note taking front (which I can understand), I hope you will continue to find time to add functions/widgets etc to allow us to build that and/or a bridge to other apps.

One last comment if I may; users come to DT from a wide variety of perspectives. (I am not teaching you anything, you know your user base more than anyone). One of those is from the note taking view, going into note, document, research gathering. If folks are mostly like me (research, big buckets of known information to plough through) DT fits mostly. If they come from the other side; disappointment. Now if you polish it a bit - perhaps no disappointment and another customer? Again, don’t want to have a chip on my shoulder saying this, just a perspective.

[pantulis]

I am sorry to report here that I have stopped using DT almost entirely, but happy to say that it was not due to DT’s shortcomings. It’s simply that I have app restrictions in my work computer and am now not able to install what I want. Sad but true, Obsidian is available and that’s what I use for work.

For my personal devices, I can only use DEVONthink in a reduced capacity as a “better Finder”, which works but honestly it’s pretty overkill as I do not do personal research projects, I just archive stuff that I consider will be useful in the future. For this my approach is indexing files stored in iCloud Drive while the proper .dt2 database is not in iCloud or synced in any other way. This is so I can use it interchangeably with Obsidian, Finder or any other app that supports the “files over apps” approach. I also store everything into Evernote, but that’s another story.

When comparing DT to Obsidian, I can say that Obsidian trumps it in terms of customization and workflow complexity but with a very apparent cost of brittleness and the constant tinkering with your vaults, plugins and metadata and whatnot. I think DT is easier to navigate, integrates bettwer with macOS and delivers value faster. Obviously you can’t beat Obsidian in price, so YMMV and both are splendid tools.