State of Outliners in 2023

Keynote has an outline mode that is pretty responsive. I’ve never really been a Keynote user, but I’ve done a few outlines in it in recent months and I’m impressed. Though I am a long-time MindNode user, I think the Keynote outline mode is more responsive and less error-prone than MindNode’s.

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I consider myself as a Keynote poweruser but never knew this exist. Thank you!

Outliners have been around almost as long as word processors. So they are really a mature product category and I wouldn’t expect much in the way of improvements from year to year. I feel the peak of the outliner market was in the 1980’s and then most of them vanished when the feature was incorporated into the major word processors.

Sadly I can’t remember the name of the product, but there was a developer that after selling a conventional outliner (for MS/DOS) had the bright idea to make one that used graph rather than tree structure. In today’s GUI world it would probably be marketed as a mind mapping program. Fast responding and easy to use. Sadly he wasn’t able to move beyond MS/DOS.

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Zavala is a really nice, free outliner.

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The dev has interesting websites, too. Thanks for linking.

I love outliners. Outside "work’ apps, (Powerpoint/ Word) they are probably the application I use the most.

I have used Omnioutliner from the time it came free with a G4 12inch powerbook. It is very flexible, but is also becoming too feature rich (and expensive) for my needs. I also use Zavala (as @liminal has linked to) and Cloud outliner Xwavesoft - Cloud Outliner 2. Simple and effective.

Always on the lookout for more :smile:

I don’t tend to use mindmap software for outlining , but I will output an OPML file into a mindmap.

There are some good threads here

Current state of Outliners - Software - MPU Talk

Zavala, shiny new outliner app to track. Available on macOS iPadOS iOS - Software - MPU Talk

New App: Bike by Hog Bay - MPU Talk

EDIT:
Apologies to @karlnyhus I see he had already linked to the last thread

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Hi, I am the developer of OutlineEdit 3, which might be an interesting option for outlining on Mac: outlineedit.com
It is a single pane outliner with super simple usage and all the Mac integrations you would expect from a great Mac app (Quicklook, dark mode, tabs, TouchBar, comprehensive menu actions, shortcuts and settings, …). And then it also has powerful organisation features like category tags and inline images. Of course, it exports and imports all common file formats, too. OutlineEdit has been in the works for almost 10 yeas, so I think most of the important lessons about outlining have been learned :slight_smile:

Looking forward to any feedback, ideas and suggestions for the app!

Best,
Robin

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I feel like I should re-phrase the original question to something like "What is the state of outliners for long-form writing / documents?

Three things remain central to me:

  1. Headings are headings and body paragraphs are body paragraphs. Sometimes a section of writing is two headings deep, and sometimes it is three. A writer shouldn’t have to create fake headings in order to have the body paragraphs be styled correctly.
  2. Styling is easy and automatically applied such that a user can “see” the structure of their document not only from indentations or handles like triangles and bullets but also from the text itself.

Less central but still important, one can hoist or focus on a section of work and also be able to print just that section of work.

OmniOutliner was brilliant at all three things, but notes, or body paragraphs, have been gradually downgraded in status (and usability) over the years.

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Have you tried Bike or OutlineEdit 3? Seems both meet your criteria. The look and feel of each one is different, but you can try out a demo of each.

See above for outlineedit.com

More on Bike here: Bike Outliner: Outline writing, lists, and notes app for Mac!

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OmniOutliner is one of those apps that never really “clicked” for me. I’ve wanted to like it, but every time I use it I run into weird ways of doing things that seem unnatural. For example, create a new, blank document, you can resize the document just fine and everything works. Now add a column, and try to resize the new column to the left. You wind up with something that looks like this:

I love OmniFocus, and I’ve been an ardent fan of OmniGraffle since I first searched for a Mac Visio alternative back in '04 or so. But, honestly, what the heck where they thinking here?

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I think it’s typical for the column divider to resize the column to the left of it, and to let you make the column too narrow if you want that. Numbers, for example, behaves the same way; it just doesn’t keep the table centered while resizing like OO.

I’m not saying that means you have to like OmniOutliner. I understand you probably dislike a lot more things about it.

P.S. I’ve been messing with OutlineEdit 3.0, mentioned above, and it’s a nice little app. I love that we have (IMO) at least three good options right now that are dedicated outliners, being actively developed, use local documents and each have their own perspective on outlining.

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I use it as a spreadhseet for basic tables where I might want a tabular data where I’m not using fomrulas etc - purely for it’s ease of use of rearraning and moving lines up and down. I can’t state how much I use and like this feature! My day job involves a lot of prioritisation of items in tables, so being able to easily move items up and down the priority list as needed is excellent. I wish Excel or Numbers had the ability to easily move rows up or down but I can’t see this as a feature.

However, it has its quirks as stated.

Is anyone out there still using Workflowy? And, if so, what for?

In the same boat. The way I work/think/expect things to work, just never completely aligned with OO.

I would actually read the manual in the hopes of my learning how to do X/Y/Z, but since I use it periodically (albeit intensely at the time), I would always come back and find myself hitting sharp edges — and having to re-learn how it expects me to do things. And, unlike OF, I also found the syncing of documents to be less than intuitive.

It’s clearly a brilliant app — but personally, was always more of a struggle to use than I expected. Regardless, went all in on purchasing it on the Mac, and iOS — so will probably get a few more years out of it. Good to know there are other options, however.

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It looks like the price for OutlineEdit in the US Mac App Store is now $19.90 (about a $10 drop).

It definitely has a very “Apple” feel to it! I can’t seem to turn numbering on (I.A.1. etc.) but that could be me. From the Outliner & Notes App for Mac - OutlineEdit 3 website

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If you need something more “simple” but gets the job done, I find Cloud Outliner Pro to be rather good

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Wanted to make sure y’all know about what, to me, seems to be the internet’s headquarters for people who like using and talking about outliner software:

https://www.outlinersoftware.com/

A bunch of great threads in the forums there.

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Thanks for the mention! Also to note, check out the latest update to OutlineEdit 3 which was just released with a bunch of nice improvements: ‎OutlineEdit 3 – Outliner Notes on the Mac App Store

What’s New

This update improves usability & accessibility. It is recommended for all users.
⋅ Ready for the newest operating system versions
⋅ Hide item indicators
⋅ Category name labels and improved display of categories
⋅ High-contrast notes option
⋅ Unfold hoisted item group automatically
⋅ Shortcuts for easy traversal and selection of item groups
⋅ Improved plaintext import and export, from apps and files
⋅ Improved OPML import from specialty apps
⋅ Further performance improvements and bug fixes

Let me know any feedback.

Best,
Robin

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This looks like a great app, but it doesn’t appear to have an iPad version; am I correct? I often switch between my Mac and iPad for writing-related work, so I need applications that work on both devices.

Otherwise, it looks like a great app!

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I’ve had OmniOutliner click for me, but I’m in a corporate windows environment, and there is not one application that is a dedicated outliner I can find. Webapps, and Scrivener is all I can see, so instead struggle along with Microsoft Word.