756: Exploring NotePlan with David Roth

Episodes
162

I too jumped on the bandwagon after hearing this episode. I had tried it a few years ago, but the combo of the recent revisions and Setapp made it much more interesting.

FWIW, I had been using Notion somewhat effectively, but like others, I was nervous locking that info into a proprietary system. I know I could have exported via PDF or some kind of database dump, but in reality, I’m never doing that.

Really like the layout and simplicity. and shortcuts integrations.

And while the web interface is not nearly as nice (or functional) as the native apps, for the time I spend on a Windows PC, it’s tremendous.

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163

Does anyone know if there is an Omni Automation that takes selected tasks in OmniFocus and Appends them to the NotePlan Daily Note? I found a four year old attempt here…

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And while we’re on the topic of Noteplan: for those of you who keep your projects structured PARA style (or really inside their own folder at all), how do you do it?

Is it like:

- Projects
    - Project Folder
    - Project Folder
    - Project File

Or is every project in its own folder?

And do folks have project naming systems?

This might merit its own thread, but it’s something I’m struggling with in my own plain-text system, and I’m curious what others do. I’ve never known how to name the projects at my freelance studio, and since a lot of projects live in their own little silos (like Davinci Resolve or Logic Pro or Figma or Docker), it’s not like they’re all organized neatly in the file system.

So if I were to use Noteplan or something, ideally I’d have to keep all those different projects organized similarly across all the other systems. (Ugh; I miss the good old days of modeless computing and file trees.) I do this now with Obsidian, but something about Noteplan’s design makes me miss it.

One issue I have is that some project notes are simple, and some have supporting documents. For the supporting documents, it’d be great if they didn’t have to be in folders, so the Projects list stays clean in Noteplan, rather than being an ever-expanding list of folders. But I don’t know how to make that happen without breaking organizational boundaries. (This is one area where database-based apps like Notion or Craft excel.)

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I love a chat about folder and file naming conventions, let’s get nerdy :laughing: (One day my colleagues will appreciate the order I try to impose on their ridiculous file management - calling a file Super Important thing v5 the final version FOR REAL is not an acceptable practice!)

I am a big fan of the principle of having somewhat similar folder structure across apps, at least at a top level, in order to handle one issue you’ve just highlighted, which is that some files are trapped in their own apps and can’t be brought to a central location. With a “universal” folder structure this doesn’t matter so much, because you only have to remember your general “map” of where things are, and it doesn’t matter which app you’re in. Don’t underestimate the mental overhead you eliminate just by standardising folder structure!

So, to answer your question, I have various areas of work responsibilities, and NotePlan is structured to reflect this to a degree. My work email (and Slack! and even Toggl Track!) and device-based folders follow the same structure (I don’t store many work files on my own system since that is not a good idea - I’m not self-employed - but there are a few files I just need all the time that are on my device). Within each top-level area folder, I tend to have subfolders for specific projects I’m working on. It is an exciting day when a piece of work gets promoted from a couple of “loose” files into a folder (for me, it’s a mental “promotion” of a small piece of work into an Official Project).

In NotePlan, I actually rarely need to create subfolders, because I try to keep one note for a project where reasonable. NotePlan captures pending tasks, meetings notes, thoughts I need to write down - and at a project level I don’t need to split this across multiple files. Sometimes a project is complicated though and needs its own folder with different notes for different parts.

I am also a big fan of numbering folders. This means I can standardise the order of the folders according to my own preference across software and reflects my own preferences. My structure is basically:

00. Ref (the important stuff I need on hand - can be permanent or temporary)
01. Pending (stuff I am working on right now that I want top)
02. Primary area of responsibility at work
...02.01. Project 1
...02.02. Project 2 
...Small things not in a subfolder
03. Second area
04. Third area
....
05. Admin (always near the bottom as it's needed but not key to my work!)
06. HR stuff (files relating to HR things like payroll, holiday, etc.)
07. Tech stuff (files relating to support tickets, tricks for how to do things - I try to write down how I did something if I think I will need to do it again and it was hard to find the solution)

I break down my folder structure according to area because my job has defined areas of work and this makes sense to me. In a different job projects might be my top level structure instead. The key point is that all my personal work-related apps follow the same folder structure, which means I always know that my Primary Area is folder 02, no matter what where I am, or admin is always 05. I never have to wonder where to save something, as I just have to follow my rules. (This makes me sound a bit lame, but some rules are good!!)

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166

I kinda like having admin in its own folder, but some admin things (like prep for quarterly taxes) are actually projects for me. They also don’t matter once they’re completed; I can archive them and I won’t need to reference them again.

I do like PARA a lot, structurally, so I will probably keep with that (and add one top-level folder for goals). I don’t love Johnny Decimal. 2.01 is weird because it implies, to me, that once 2.01 is completed, another 2.01 takes its place. I want each project to have a unique key across the file system.

An insightful post though, thank you!

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167

I have this tension, too. My projects are based on clients, and I don’t have repeat matters. Once my work for a client has ended, I don’t work on that project again.

I like PARA, but I find myself needing more consistency in my file structure, especially in NotePlan. Once I’m inside a project, I often have to hunt for the folder or type of note I want.

So is the solution to use folder and file numbering for the top levels of PARA, then let the project names float, and in each project begin a consistent numbering scheme again? But then you can’t search for a number across all apps to find Project X, Folder type Y, and File/Note type Z.

What filing organization are people using successfully who have floating project names?

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168

Big, big fan of both here, although I mostly reserve numbered folders for research and learning. I take the same approach to tags: they are standardized across all my apps and repositories.

169

I’m still mulling this over, but what if one were to maintain PARA structure, give each client a folder in Areas, and put the meeting notes file(s) and normal note(s) files within that directory?

Then the project note is just one note with wikilinks to the relevant notes/meeting notes at the bottom.

This keeps it clean, and if you’re like me, most of my notes are scratchpads, and most of my meeting notes are brief. So I keep one meeting note file with dates as headings, and having all the notes for a single client in one document can be helpful and relevant even if that client has multiple projects at once (or over time).

If you did this, you’d see projects as individual files inside the Projects folder, with no need to go clicking through subdirectories. You could even migrate any completed projects to an archive folder in that client’s Area folder, if you would prefer to avoid putting it in the Archive folder.

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170

Thanks very much for the ideas! NotePlan has not only my tasks and deadlines, but all my project notes, which are extensive.

I’m a lawyer. In PARA, my cases are the Projects. In my regular file system (not my notes apps), each client folder has about 17 sub-folders that I use for every case. Those sub-folders often have sub-folders themselves. I haven’t yet tried to duplicate my file system in NotePlan, but it would look something like this:

10 - PROJECTS

  • Ashcroft, Jane (client name)
    • Client Docs (documents sent to me by the client)
    • Communications
      • Adjuster
      • Client
      • Court
      • Defendants
      • DC (defense counsel)
    • Depos
      • Depo of Jones, John
      • Depo of Smith, Dave
      • Notices

Etc. It’s all alphabetical right now. It seems that something like Johnny Decimal would allow me to standardize my file system and notes apps, so I could search for 10.01.02.02 to retrieve every communication with client Jane Ashcroft.

I’m wondering if it will take too much mental energy to keep track of a numbering system like that. And, my I typically only handle a single case for a client; when that case is over, the file goes to an archive folder. So my Project numbers would constantly be changing.

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This is a tricky problem, and I don’t have any immediate solutions overall, but I’ve worked with multiple clients whose name schemes are acronym, then project number.

In your example, the acronym might be AJ. Then project 1, 2, etc. so AJ1, AJ2. That still fries my brain for some reason, though.

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If I was in your shoes I’m thinking I would either alphabetise by surname, like you’ve suggested, or use a number system based on start date (just year and month, so e.g. “2024-09 Ashcroft”. Or every year I’d start new numbering, so I’d have “2024.001”, “2024.002”, etc. I’m not sure which I’d pick in the end but I do like that the date structure shows which projects have been running the longest.

I’d set up subfolders to be fairly standard though, e.g.
2024-09-a Client docs
2024-09-b Correspondence

(I’d use letters instead of numbers for my subfolders so that they’re not confused as dates.)

The standardisation means you always know where everything is and also means in future if you need to dig out correspondence relating to this project you could just find the file number then search for “2024-09-b” instead of manually looking.

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I’ve used a similar system: year-clientcode-projectnumber description, e.g. 2021IBM001 Brand Identity. I like it because the folders are legible, the same number looks official enough on invoices and you can just talk about them with just the last three.

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174

My qualm with this is multi-year projects, which I have been fortunate enough to be a part of, even when they are draining and exhausting. I’m talking about huge design systems and app redesigns, multisite web development, etc. I don’t know how to add a YYYY to that.

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No perfect solution there…I’ve tried both half-solutions with those: working out of the original year project for multiple years, and rolling into a new project each year. I prefer the latter because it is often what client purchasing/AP wants. Subfolders are then either symlinked across all the project years, or the old years are copied into the new and then frozen and archived.

Besides simpler file management, the big benefit of working out of the original folder for years is it just gets funnier for the team with time, especially if the client is dysfunctional. :slight_smile:

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Is it funny when the client is dysfunctional, though? Is it?

Argh. Perhaps I need a new sense of humour.

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177

I know some folks love it, but Johnny Decimal and similar numeric systems would pointlessly add another layer of cognitive load for me. It would be a lot easier to remember to look for information on Jane Ashcroft under “Clients/Jane Ashcroft” than under “10.01.02.02”

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178

Yes. Absolutely.

KISS (Keep it simple, stupid) was one of the first important lessons I learnt in programming, back in the 1970s. I’m amazed that it is still so relevant. I guess we’re still as stupid!

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179

David mentioned NotePlan again on Sunday’s Episode 761 with Matt Cassinelli!

I really hope he switches over to NotePlan in January and we can all look forward to a NotePlan Field Guide. Perhaps he is working on the Field Guide now and will announce it in conjunction with his switch over to NotePlan from Obsidian?

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:grimacing:

Isn’t it good when the final work is completed. (Is the mental relief of finishing the work worth the effort it took to get there :joy:)

I’m currently in the final stages of getting a publication published that I started work on in 2020 and was meant for publication in 2021. It should’ve taken maybe 8 months at most, but people kept dithering and delaying and postponing. I keep using the 2021 dates in messages because I am passively-aggressively making a point (it also serves to remind people that this has gone on long enough and we are not re-negotiating this autumn’s deadline unless a nuclear wars starts).

Personally in the example of multi-year projects (and in my own example), I keep the file code as the original year (that doesn’t change even as the clock ticks on), I make the second layer of subfolders the years (so the relevant year is inside each relevant group). E.g.

  • Client2021-001-b Correspondence > 2021, 2022, 2023, etc…
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My system isn’t really Johnny Decimal, although I took inspiration from it (but really a lot of data management systems in the last couple of centuries have used numbers).

You’re right there can be cognitive load, but I don’t make it as complex as your example or how the Johnny Decimal system works as I just don’t need that level of detail (nor do I find it helpful for the reason you note).

I mostly only use numbering for the top 2 or 3 levels of a folder structure.

The advantage is it brings useful info to the front of the folder name (useful if you have a small display window, e.g. if you’re navigating folders via column views), and it offers a level of standardisation that can be handy for searches.

For example, I’m an ecologist. I do some research on wolves. I might want to quickly open my folder on wolves in Europe. I can’t search either of those two terms because it would bring up a lot of results. But I can search 10.02.01., which is my folder for papers and notes on wolves in Europe. (I still give the folder a text name, so it would be “10.02.01. Wolves - Europe”.)

For stuff that you use a lot, you quickly learn the numbers and it makes navigation a tiny bit quicker. (For example, 10.02. in my example above means “wolves”. 10. Means it’s terrestrial predators. Now I can quickly navigate to the right sections even if I’m not sure what I’m looking for yet.)

An advantage of this system for knowledge management is that you can rename folders without it affecting the structure for navigation. For example I might decide I’m only interested in wolves in Western Europe now. In an alphabetic system that folder would now move to W instead of E, but in my system the number doesn’t change.

I definitely have numbers I don’t use much and don’t remember. That’s fine, it doesn’t bother me, I just scroll down the list until I find what I’m looking for. If I use it frequently enough I’ll remember it.

Of course, this doesn’t work for everyone!

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