Any news on "lightweight" Scrivener?

A few months, perhaps even a year-plus ago, there was a discussion about Scrivener. One or more folks were active beta-testers for a new lightweight version of Scrivener. I have no idea what the new product will be called … probably not Scrivener Lite! :slight_smile:

At any rate, I’m wondering if anyone can provide updates on the development of this product. Is it still happening? A release probably in next 6 months?

This sounded like a great idea for a new product, even though I can’t remember all the details. And I know the Scrivener developer tends to work slowly/carefully.

Nothing new on their website since the announcement over a year ago: Something New: Beta Testers Needed - Literature & Latte

Thanks for this link! I believe 1 or 2 folks in this community were in on the beta program … hopefully they can let us know something a bit more. I know I’m interested in the product, but just have no idea when it might release. The post @tomaly linked to did say the product should be ready by the end of 2024 … but I always take developer estimations of delivery with a big grain of salt.

I think to be allowed in the beta program one must agree to keep all details secret/private.

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Fair enough. With some searching on their forums (difficult because we don’t even know the name of the new product), Keith the developer wrote in early September 2024:

Unfortunately the release is likely to be early next year now. We’re not going to say or show anything more until it’s nearly ready for release, purely to avoid frustration for everybody.

So … perhaps sometime before June 2025. If anyone else is interested, I found Keith’s remark as part of this forum thread:

I think most users look at all the features they don’t use and consider themselves a candidate for a Scrivener Light. However everyone has a different set of features they use, and a Scrivener Light product is likely to satisfy few current users. Maybe it can be Scrivener with Training Wheels.

Frankly, I’d rather see him put some effort into making Compile straightforward and understandable. That seems to baffle everyone on their first project and doesn’t get that easier over time.

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From the early discussion, I think it’s pitched to be a Ulysses competitor and definitely not “Scrivener Light” - i.e. it will use iCloud, be very similar on iPad and Mac and not have any of the compile stuff. It will be rtf-based and not markdown, but it will be interesting to see what the implications of that are (there was some mention of styled text).

I’m definitely a potential customer, but learnt a long time ago to completely ignore any timescale for anything from that developer.

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“Scrivener Sibling” (or perhaps “Cousin”) was my impression from the initial description as well, and not Lite. I wasn’t in time for beta signup, unfortunately, so it’s all speculation until more news comes out.

Mentioned previously that my fingers are still crossed for this and/or Panda in 2025, although the latter developers are concentrating on bringing out a web version of Bear at the moment. Both sets of devs require a lot of patience. :wink:

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As an interface designer, I never fall into the trap of believing that an app has too many features. Usually when people say this, what they actually mean is that the features are not intuitively accessible. And what that means isn’t actually usually the result of a cleaner interface, but instead how the features are hierarchically organized. Mostly, a good application is one that automates almost everything, but also allows a user to intuitively modify that automation. Scrivener is feature rich, but many of the features are similar and or offered up as different in different situations. The other problem with Scrivener is that it claims to integrate and automate the entire book writing and publishing process, but it does so largely by making features and functions previously only available in professional (read, intractable) book pre-press layout software. This isn’t automation. This is handing writers tools thay don’t and shouldn’t have to understand, and they do this handing off of pre-press tools in an extremely complicated way. Just wade into Litterature and Latte’s own Scrivener “Compile” tutorial videos to see exactly how awkward is the workflow required to take advantage of Scrivener’s pre-press “automation”. Not only is the process unintuitive, but it requires an impossible to understand underlying architecture. Doesn’t matter how many times a user goes through the ordeal, both the process and the underlying mechanism remain inscrutable. Best one can hope for as a user is putting it to wrote memory. This ism’t because there are too many elements or functions offered, it’s that these elements and functions have little or no relationship to what a writer care about when preparing a book for publication. Yes a writer cares about layout. No a writer should not have to know anything about how a particular piece of software is going about accomplishing any of this under the hood. Imagine if your car’s dashboard presented a giant touchscreen interactive diagram of the electrical and mechanical layout of your vehicle’s engine and drive train, and that this was how you were expected to drive the thing down the road. All of that functionality must of course exist, but none of it has anything at all to do with what a driver should have to know or do while guiding the vehicle down the road. An auto manfucturerer doesn’t announce that it is going too make driving more intuitive by strategically eleminating parts from the car’s structure or drivetrain. That would be insane and lazy and ultimately dangerous and frankly impossible. Same with software design. And then there is the fact that for all this complexity, Scrivener really doesn’t offer much in the way of options. There really is only one basic page layout available in Scrivener… just a header, a footer, and a single column of body text. There is no way to set up double or triple columns. There is no way to set up magins that can hold photos or illustrations or diagrams or pull quotes or asides or author notes or examples or reader exercises. When, asked, the people at Scrivener get entirely defensive and make ridiculous statements like “Scrivener was never ment to be a layout tool!” even while their own promotional material ALWAYS brags that Scrivener is exactly that.

When I am designing software, when I am prototyping applications, I start with general user layout, but I also expose the data model upon which I am building up the application. That data model and the tools I write to provide access to and manipulation of the data as the user interacts with the application, well none of that should ever be apparent to the user. Almost all of Scrivener acts, looks, and feels like the data model armature that a programmer builds so that he or she can keep track of the application’s mechanicals under the hood. That sort of thing should never be exposed to the user. Yet so much of the software I see being sold to the public never seems to make it past this preliminary stage of development. Putting pretty icons on a programmer’s armature doesn’t cut it. Yet that is what Scrivener is even now after three iterations.

Anyone want to build an actual solution for writers? Here is how you would do so. Make the thing WYSIWYG! Allow the writer to instantly toggle between views, and let those views be user defined. Let the views be exactly what the output would be once exported to Txt, PDF, print, E-Book, etc. Let all the views be where a writer goes about their writing. There should be zero difference between where someone writes and where someone sets up the layout for export. Swapping formats should be instantaneous and not at all interrupt the writing process or the content of what is being written. Setting up layouts should be as easy as dragging text box boundaries and dragging gutters edges and dragging elements. All changes should be a part of a hierarchical history that can be walked backed and re-branched at any time. Get rid of all the endless settings panels. Layout edits should be in-situ. Want to make a font bigger? Hold the optionKey down and drag up or down. Want to change a font? Hold down the commandKey and choose from a menu of fonts. Want to switch to another layout, one you’ve made for writing or one you’ve set up for output, just click on the layout button and choose from a list of default and custom layouts. Boom! Your writing never cares what layout you are in, only the layout changes around it. Changing the target page size of a layout? The software should automatically resize elements and fonts and text size to optimize to that new page size. Sure you can make adjustments, but the process should be automatic and simple and in-situ and optimized. Then create a marketplace for layouts, for styles, and allow users to share their layouts and for free or profit. Allow a user to choose two layouts and with a slider control, choose to mix the two layouts.

No separate writing mode, and layout mode, and output modes. You can write and create in any layout and you can just a layout while you write. The user is always in the same mode. Just with different veiws into the content they are creating. Yes there should be meta-data, but the user shouldn’t have to go to another removed interface to adjust or edit or browse it. The user decides what meta-data to include in what layouts. But the metadata is always available because any layout is available at any time. The user can choose to see hidden meta-data in the same way that a word processor allows the user to see or un-see hidden characters.

All of the functions and elements available in Scrivener should remain. Many more should be made available. But the interface should present these functions in a simple WYSIWIG mannor consistent with what a writer wants. No writer wants a seperate output or setup mode. No writer wants endless preferences pains stored and accessed in separate preference windows.

I believe that the problems I have mentioned here are common because most software is designed by geeks and dweebs, by people with cognitive issues that don’t at all map to the user’s they hope to attract. An ADHD ASD geek doesn’t think like the user’s they market to. Geeks make software for other geeks. Geeks are a small part of any market. Don’t design software for geeks.

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That has got to be the best explanation of my struggle in finding a writing application that can span anything from a one page article to a 30 chapter book.

I’m baffled by Scrivener’s compile feature and it is hard to take the time to digest the process and then remember it for the future.

You wouldn’t happened to have a recommendation for a writing app for the Mac an iPad would you? :slightly_smiling_face::wink:

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I’m baffled by it too but when it comes time to conpile something I refresh my memory by rewatching the excellent tutorial videos on L&L’s website. Watch it; use it; forget it.

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What I personally want to see is the app that will truly simulate a typewriter: with fixed size pages and a fixed typeface of a fixed size (when I use the word “fixed”, I mean there should be no way to “customize” something), and with no undo, redo, cut, paste (except the option to paste images: since technically you can paste images from e.g. a magazine and add them to your typed document with e.g. a glue), Markdown, etc. Each typed character should immediately become a part of the page, that is, you cannot simply delete it. Also, there should be no options like flush text to the right or center it (except manually, like if using a real typewriter), automatic page numbers, automatic lists, etc. A “bad” page can be removed entirely or you can overtype some letters or words, like if using a real typewriter. The output is either a PDF or multipage TIFF, 300 ppi (fixed). I even started learn Swift for this.

Analogy: I am always baffled by how I should put gas in my car. Let me rewatch this excellent video. In about 400 miles, I will have forgotten it all. No worries. I’ll just remind myself to watch it again.

Compiling a document is an integral step of going from its input format to its output format. As such, it should not become well known in folklore as the step where users always must RTFM.

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JJW

WYSIWYG AND WIAV (write in any view) set opposing demands on the processing engines. One case optimizes the internal design at the given instant down to the character level and outputs the entire document result to view. The other case allows an external disturbance at any given instant to force a recalibration, not just at the character level but potentially across the entire document universe.

The safest way for a document to process internally what it will display is to turn off all permissions for a user to make changes to its content while it processes the current input content. The least cumbersome way for a document to avoid having to constantly re-process its display content each time a user makes an external change is to avoid the re-processing step unless a user forces it.

Hence, as noted, the reason why well-designed typesetting apps have a manual toggle switch to separate the user’s experience for inputting text from the user’s view of the final output text. In Word, Obsidian, and others, the toggles are buttons. In Scrivener, LaTeX, and others, the toggle is a compilation process.

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JJW

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No thanks, I remember those days well and was glad when I tossed my Smith Corona in the trash!

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Is the problem that all of these authors unhappy with their software tools are self-publishing?

Is the problem that self-publishing authors are doing jobs today that used to be performed by other workers in the writing, editing, publishing, and distribution business?

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I haven’t had any problems and I’ve self-published several books. I’ve used all the tools, they all have good points, and frustrating points. I also use Vellum, which takes a word document, and turns into files that work with Amazon KDP - their self publishing system. The only problem with Vellum is that it’s expensive for only 1 book, but far cheaper than what I pay to editors and book cover designers. I used to compile in scrivener, but it’s easier to export it into word, then do a bit of manual formatting.

Perhaps because you are an experience professional self-publisher and not a writer trying not to use Microsoft Word for some reason?

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I’m baffled by Scrivener’s compile feature and it is hard to take the time to digest the process and then remember it for the future.

I bought Scrivener, but I admit I never used it. From time to time, I say to myself that I should maybe I try it out. And then I read threads like this one and my answer is: « hell, no! I’ll stay with Ulysses»

That said, I bet most Scrivener users don’t bother fiddling with the compile feature: they export to Word, and then fix the formating and layout issues in post.

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Indeed, I read a lot of threads where writers ignore compile and go straight to Word. I may try that was well.

@Ojanostra Have you ever lost work in Ulysses?