I am not wishing to start a flame war here. I am simply noting that in this thread what started as discussion of a software tool has degenerated into ad hominem attacks on the founder by a number of posters. Whether the software is good or useful is becoming a side issue.
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I think quoting someoneās own words and actions with respect to the software product is on-topic. More, when you have someone whoās encouraged calling his product a cult, someone who admitted to trolling users on Twitter with regard to pricing, who did not properly gauge how the companyās services could scale and had to shut down access to new users, who engages in hyperbole and calling users true believers, and tossing out speculative pricing plans while competitors are marching up to replicate his softwareās most prominent feature, I think itās not unreasonable to note this and even make comparisons to other carnival barker-esque individuals on Twitter. You said the thread was ādividedā but I donāt really think it is. Itās certainly possible to discuss an app, and we have, on several threads, but itās also possible to discuss a companyās leadership or failure in leadership.
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You canāt separate the feature set/technical qualities of a product like Roam from the commercial and service/support qualities of the outfit that offers it. Questions about their attitude to actual and prospective customers, theyāre openness and their reliability are important, especially with subscription and even more especially when the supplier hosts your data.
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Good point, but I think actually you can. The decision matrix you use to choose whether you want to engage with a product is up to the individual. However most people make a purchase decision based on whether the product gives enough value to them to override any distaste for the personalities involved. I get that. I think Tesla make a great product. I canāt stand Elon Musk. Iād think hard about buying a Tesla at least until the value to me overcame that. But I stand by my comment that the thread has wandered from the practical to the personal.
I am playing devils advocate here, I donāt know where I am on Roam. No one is asking me to pay for it right now. As far as customer interaction goes, the twitter threads are very active and helpful and even the subreddit has been useful.
Iām happy to wait and see, but I am not going to dismiss it just yet.
A bit harsh. The only keystroke you need to remember as far as I can see is /
Even I can remember that 
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For me, itās not sp much about the personalities - rather the behaviours (yes, I know one follows the other 
). If I give you my money, can I rely on you to to the possibly boring but necessary work of maintaining and supporting the service. Iād like to see something from Roam that shows theyāve given this serious consideration - a tweet or two would do, but thereās been nothing so far.
Much of the functionality of Roam is triggered by combinations and sequences of {{}} [] (()) : and other special characters and not available via /. Hereās an example (a query to list TODO and DONE for today):
{{query: {and: [[May 11, 2020]] {or: [[TODO]] [[DONE]]}}}}
Iām not complaining per se that you need this kind of ācodingā - my worry is that features are proliferating without apparent structure or priority, and that non-functional features are not given profile
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More perspective (than disagreement)ā¦
I agree with many aspects of both sides of this argumā¦ cough coughā¦ discussion. I have concerns about survival of a cult (though some big money seems to back RoamResearch, so thatās heartening). As for keystrokes, I love the ā/ā command approach - it reminds me of Lotus 1-2-3 (back in the day). Very elegant. I also agree that hodgepodge will be dangerous (which is why I like the ā/ā command in Lotus 1-2-3, no hodge podge).
However, one thing which I think has been lost in this conversation is how RoamResearch has (looking at all the competitors popping up, and the old dogs learning new tricks) made wiki-links so standardized and efficient. Roam starts by creating referenced wiki-pages w/o any additional effort. The wiki support in others is stumbling to follow. So obvious, yet unclear in concept to followers (sometimes taking multiple drafts of feature to catch-up). And tags are now first-class citizens. No one seems to talk about that at all. I think thatās truly elegant, and a great way to go.
So even if Roam stumbles, Roam has already demonstrated a fantastic radical (meaning back to basic roots) sensibility for a productive, powerful approach to text. Their core sensibility is spot on.
So, as theyāre in beta, Iād cut them some slack. I suspect (and hope) their syntax will evolve over time, but Iām happy to see them develop text into more of powerhouse (like Lotus 1-2-3 for numbers, or Visicalc before that) and with an approachable UI. I agree the attributes syntax is a little inefficient (awkward and cumbersome), but thatās a great opportunity to polish as they figure out attributes. Plus, at least they are using text, instead of automatically falling back to some complex, clunky GUI. If weāre going to use text, its going to get fairly complicated for some (sophisticated) items, IMO.
So, I suggest calling Roam out for where they could improve, but not necessarily writing them off for a few (relatively minor) missteps compared to what theyāve already accomplished and even established through their competitionās scrambles to catch up. Roam is raising the bar. I appreciate their approach, and I hope they succeed even further!-)
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I believe diplomats use the term āfree and frank exchange of viewsā
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No one should be surprised by this, but Twitter seems to be a poor reflection of Conorās character.
I recently listened to the only two podcast appearances of his that I could find and I was quite inspired. He explains his own background, a lot of the thinking behind Roam, some grander visions for the platform, and why he can be so harsh-seeming online. (TL;DR: strong opinions, weakly held.)
My favourite takeaway, though, is that itās clear that Conor thinks the way Roam is designed to help people think. The way he pulls ideas from a variety of sources is impressive.
This doesnāt mean Iām going all-in on Roam (actually, Iāve done so on Obsidian), but it made me pause my previous judgments about Roamās direction and leadership. If anyone has been curious about the more philosophical or social discussions of this thread, I highly highly encourage you to listen to the two episodes:
Aside: Podchaser is actually a pretty cool tool. You can find where different people have appeared on a variety of podcasts.
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I donāt disagree at all. And agree with your sentiments here (except Roam is my primary and Obsidian is secondary).
Here are a few other videos (long-form) to understand Conor and his vision.
(Pasted from Roam)
[[Roam Research - Conor White-Sullivan (Antipessimist) - YouTube]] - Video Link
[[Interview with Conor White-Sullivan, Founder of Roam - YouTube]] - Video Link with Tiago Forte
[[Roam Research, a chat with Conor White-Sullivan - YouTube]] - Video Link
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I decided just to back Obsidian as a supporter due to a couple of issues. The first one being the biggest that in Roam your data is on their servers that they already had bandwidth issues with. The second being still have not gotten even an acknowledgement of being put on the waiting list indicating that either Customer Service is not a priority, underfunded or poor management of which any one of the three is a red flag.
Prior to public release, Obsidian gave me access within 24hrs as followsā¦
Blockquote
Hi,
Thanks so much for the interest in our private beta!
We have set up a Discord server (itās like a Slack workspace but with fewer limitations) to do private beta releases and collect feedback. Hereās the invite link: Obsidian Members Group (OMG)
I know weāre asking a lot as you might not have a Discord account, but we do think having a tight-knit community is the best way to quickly iterate on and polish the product.
Please let me know if Discord is not an option for you, we can arrange something over email too. Really looking forward to seeing you there! 
P.S. Hereās a screenshot of the app, in case youāre interested. The app is changing so fast every week so we didnāt include it on the website 
(Thereās a light theme too, and you can close and resize all the panels. If you donāt like the way it looks, our community has also built awesome custom themes. The preview is also toggle-able. The UI can be a lot more minimal if youād like, this screenshot is just showing Obsidianās busiest state for demo purposes.)
Thanks,
Erica
Blockquote
It appears that these two products are fighting in the market for the Note platform customers and will instill development from both companies. It should be quite interesting to see what is developed.
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Despite not being convinced by Obsidian at first, Iām getting more and more intrigued again because the clarity and professionalism of the development team inspires good faith. I agree that the competition between the two apps is a great thing.
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Iāve been using Obsidian for the past weeks pretty regularly and it is very promising to me. I like whole approach with their community-driven development process and the idea of plugins. The only downside at the moment is the lack of a mobile app but then itās all markdown so at least I can use and edit my files. At the moment I have a āTemp folderā in Obsidian and when I work on my iPad I write and edit md files and put them in there. When Iām back at my iMac I edit them, put in links etc. Obviously, not a long-term solution but for now totally okay.
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Having just finished Taking Smart Notes with DEVONthink, I think Iām going to use DEVONthink. The book really gave me a new perspective, and showed me the capabilities of DT. A bonus is the interoperability with writing programs such as Scrivener, iAWriter, etc., and reference managers such as Bookends. Everything is local, thereās rudimentary mobile support with DEVONthink to Go, scripting is available, - it seems the natural choice.
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The mobile app is indeed a must-have for me as well and it seems the roadmap promises something a little too light for my taste. Iām currently in Bear and itās hard to find a really delightful replacement.
@JohnAtl ā ārudimentaryā really is my dealbreaker with that solution. I would love to use DT ā I would have loved it to use it literally for years ā but DTTG is so far behind.
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According to a Slack post from Conor W-S (not Twitter this time), paid access will (95% chance) be available this week. No detail of final costs or terms.
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Aye. For note-taking, DTTG itself isnāt such a good experience.
I still use it as a file repository on mobile, but I use DT indexing and serve up the folders in iCloud. That way I can access notes and files from multiple avenues.
@JohnAtl, does Diniās book get into managing backlinks or mentions in DT at all? There are some pretty incredible scripts working towards this kind of functionality over on the DT forum (example: https://discourse.devontechnologies.com/t/dt3-script-create-stack-for-each-document-for-multiple-cards-snippets-with-backlink-cited-text-or-note-comment-and-tagging-perhaps-a-synergy-with-the-bookend-script/48614), but Iād be curious about Diniās approach.
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Yes, he does - return links, incoming links, etc.
I would post the ToC, but donāt want to circumvent his system. If you sign up for his newsletter, you can get the ToC and free samples of this and his other books and courses.
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@times_reader Iāve been using Obsidian a few weeks after blowing them off a couple months ago. Very impressed with the pace of improvement and the attitude of the developers (same folks who built Dynalist). Would just point out that I keep my Obsidian vault on icloud entirely. Can access from my home Mac and work Windows station. Can access/edit any notes in my ipad with any of the md editors. Can put in links etc on the pad but of course you donāt have the dropdowns/search you have while in Obsidian - but it will recognize those links etc when you open the file in the app. Spent months on Roam (and contributed to both in beta) but Iām very likely to pick Obsidian over Roam as my final solution for a variety of reasons.
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I have started the book and Iām impressed by both the work (was expecting as much by @kourosh !) but also the sheer possibilities of DEVONthink which I realize I had only scratched. I was and remain a Bear fan but it seems that for really deep knowledge work, DT remains unparalleled. I am itching for a true DTTG update but I could be willing to throw my lot with DT and trusting in a true DTTG update some time. Iām still doing most my deep work on the Mac anyway.
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